The Sorrow and the Pity Page #15

Russia is, after all,

the country that defends their ideals.

Our main disagreement was the following:

Should we aim to be a reserve army,

or an army that grows strong

through battle?

Both sides had different opinions.

How did you manage to reconcile

these differences in the Resistance?

I wasn't very good at it.

Indeed, as regional leader in Limoges,

I never once made contact

with the Communists.

-Although you were supposed to?

-Although I was ordered to.

-And the order came from London?

-Yes.

The army ranks generally viewed us

as dangerous people,

who were prepared to shed blood

for reasons they felt inadequate.

We were surprised by London's insistence

that we join together

in fighting for the Resistance.

We felt that it would be dangerous

to arm these Communists.

After all, some of these Communists

were not very commendable people.

We feared this would

lead to problems after Liberation.

From what I've understood,

you were in charge of the assault groups.

Did you participate in any assaults?

I did some sabotage,

but I never assaulted anyone.

What I mean is

that I never deliberately shot down

a German in the street.

-But you would have?

-Yes, had it been my job,

but that was not my responsibility.

You say the Communists

were not very commendable people.

For example, some of the Communists

they had recruited

were condemned people, for example.

It was due to these conditions

that we praised the action

taken by Pierre George, Colonel Fabien,

who killed a German in the metro.

People had to get used to fighting.

There were two ways of seeing things.

All over Paris, there were lists

of those who had been killed.

Either you could give in to despair,

and resign yourself to do nothing,

or you could fight.

The army would give orders to attack,

whereas the Communists were in favor

of immediate guerrilla warfare,

in the form of assassinations or sabotage.

They were disobeying the orders

we'd been sent from London.

We thought to ourselves

that orders of that nature

shouldn't be obeyed,

and we, of all people,

used one of de Gaulle's sayings,

which we twisted around, and said,

"National insurrection

goes hand in hand with liberation."

The Resistance was

a permanent guerrilla war.

It was three guys who intercepted

a German convoy on the road,

threw three grenades, shot two rounds,

and took off in the wilderness.

And this proved to be the only way

of training and keeping fighters.

Do you have the impression

that France today

has been somewhat determined

by the way it was during WWll,

or at least from '39 to '44?

I'm convinced of it.

The proof of this is that

de Gaulle began his life,

his political life,

by a breach of trust.

This breach of trust was rather odd.

I think that if in 1940

we had had the same referendum

we had a few days ago, on April 27,

some 90%%% of the French population

would have voted for Ptain

and a quiet German occupation.

So he was at complete odds with history.

The Free French do not accept this defeat.

The Free French do not consent

to the idea that,

on the pretext of European unification,

their country should be used by the enemy

as a departure point

for attacking other peoples,

who are fighting for the same ideals.

Until the day we met the main player...

Until the day I said,

"I want to see de Gaulle,"

it didn't go so well.

I found myself facing a man

who astounded me,

because he was already

quite simply the king of France.

-But his subjects didn't know him.

-He was a king without subjects.

There are two things

we still haven't fully understood today

concerning the position

of de Gaulle and the Free French.

In England at that time,

there were several foreign governments,

but they were all governments,

whereas de Gaulle

and the Free French were not.

All the other powers here in London

had come with their governments:

The Dutch, the Belgians, the Norwegians.

Their governments in London

were the same as the ones at home.

But this wasn't the case in France,

as Ptain was still in power.

Is that not the worst accusation of Ptain

and the Vichy administration

that one could possibly make?

After all,

France is the only country guilty of this.

Yes, that's true.

At the heart of the debate,

it is true that de Gaulle,

because his means were so limited,

because his army was so small,

and the territories behind him

so secondary,

that he really had no other choice

than to be extremely rigid,

to be a stickler

for the rights he represented.

-His pride became a weapon.

-It's true that his pride, tenacity

and rather inflexible nature

did not make things any easier.

But I do think that politically thinking,

he was right.

Understand that politically, he was right.

Pierre Mends-France, flying officer in '39,

was accused of desertion

by the Vichy regime,

and sentenced

by Clermont military tribunal.

The former prime minister

managed to escape

and arrived in London via Switzerland.

I must admit that what happened in France

had traumatized me greatly.

I had a difficult time getting over the insult

of having been accused of desertion

in face of the enemy.

I felt a need to fight,

to prove that I was a fighter.

When I arrived in London,

my choice was clear.

-Because of the accusation of desertion?

-Yes.

That night, I found myself facing de Gaulle

for the first time.

He questioned me thoroughly

on the state of France,

as he was obviously on the lookout

for information,

and wanted to know

what people were thinking,

how the French felt

towards the Resistance.

I must admit that meeting de Gaulle was

for me an overwhelming thing.

It was a deeply moving event.

And I must say

that our first meeting went very well.

Wasn't he cold? They say

that when people came from France...

-That's true.

-He was happy, but...

No, it's true.

He was a shy man,

and it was this shy nature of his

that was at the root of his cold manner

of welcoming certain people.

He wasn't cold to me, maybe because

we had a long conversation.

What was the general spirit

of the Free French Fighters?

It was... There's no denying

that it was a very unusual army.

It was very limited in number,

because of the situation.

They all arrived feeling, and let's not

mince words, rather humiliated,

because the ruling

French government, Vichy,

had signed the armistice

and abandoned England.

They didn't know how welcomed

they would be in England.

But they were welcomed with open arms.

Every one of them

felt a deep sense of gratitude

for the simple fact

that the English welcomed them.

And then there was a sense of admiration

for the English people,

who were the only ones

to stand up to the storm.

What was unique about the French pilots

was the ever-present debate

on whether or not

we had the right to bomb France.

The Lorraine squadron was a unit

whose planes didn't have

a very large field of action.

So there was, unfortunately,

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