The U.S. vs John Lennon Page #5

a few offers to help.

People said, "How much is it?"

I don't know, but it's cheaper

than somebody's life.

He was using the fact

that the media

had an obsessive affair with him.

Whatever he did,

they had to pay attention.

But that doesn't actually mean

that you got a coherent idea

of what they were trying to say,

because obviously the media

didn't really understand it,

and to the extent they understand it,

they didn't like it.

I'm someone who

admired you very much.

Well, I'm sorry you liked

the old mop tops, dear,

and you thought

I was very satirical...

But talking about

cashing in on the Beatle...

and you liked

"Hard Day's Night," love,

but I've grown up.

But you obviously haven't.

- Have you?

- Yes, folks.

- What have you grown up to?

- I'm now 29.

John was no dummy.

He knew that people would regard him

as being a nutcase.

He didn't care.

He thought that whatever

people thought about him

was unimportant compared to

the cause he was promoting.

If I'm going to get

on the front page,

I might as well get on the front page

with the word "peace."

But you've made

yourself ridiculous!

To some people. I don't care...

You're too good

for what you're doing!

If it saves lives...

You don't think you...

Oh, my dear boy,

you're living in

a never-never land.

Well, you talk to the...

You don't think

you've saved a single life?

Listen, will you tell me,

what were they singing

at the moratorium?

Which... Which... -

I mean, the moratorium?

Washington.

The one here.

The recent big one.

They were singing

"Give Peace a Chance."

- A song of yours, probably.

- Well, yes, and it was written...

I knew you'd bring that up.

So they sang

one of your songs.

Well, if you...

Great song, sure,

but is that all

you can say about that?

The moratorium?

You were saying

that in America

they're so serious about

the protest movement.

Yes, they are.

But they were so flippant that they were

singing a happy-go-lucky song

which happens to be one I wrote.

And I'm glad they sang it.

And when I get there,

I'll sing it with them.

April 1970,

Nixon invaded Cambodia,

and at that point,

the country practically blew up.

Four students on May 4, 1970,

were killed by National Guardsmen

at Kent State University

for protesting.

They were protesting

against the war.

Okay, you had

18-year-old college kids

without the sense

God gave a goose

going around challenging

18-year-old kids

with.30-06

semiautomatic rifles...

Yes, they were in uniform.

They were National Guard...

Very little training.

They felt threatened,

they were armed.

What did you think

was going to happen?

Somehow I thought that this was

an irresistible tide

that was going to carry

the whole of America with it,

and we didn't quite see

the backlash

that was actually already brewing

and quite evident if you were just

willing to open your eyes.

Each of the special agents of

the Federal Bureau of Investigation

must be ready and capable

to meet any challenge.

The security of our nation

or the life of a loved one

may depend upon him.

Hoover was a man who had

a slightly different version

of democracy

than the rest of us did.

The FBI under J. Edgar Hoover,

as documents now make clear...

I don't think there's any real debate

about it anymore...

Used the FBI as an instrument,

almost as a political police force.

Anyone who was off message

became susceptible

to an FBI probe.

They say sometimes that

Mr. Hoover is controversial.

Let me tell you something.

Anybody who's strong,

anybody who fights

for what he believes in,

anybody who stands up

when it's tough

is bound to be controversial.

Back in those days,

the FBI would operate

affirmatively.

They would not just

gather intelligence,

but it perceived as its mission

the disruption of the other side.

Anyone who was involved

at that time in any movement

that challenged

the government in any way

was aware of the extent

to which the FBI

tapped peoples' phones,

engaged in

widespread surveillance,

engaged in harassment,

framed people up,

used the legal system.

Ours is a just cause.

If we have faith in humanity,

if we seek

God's divine guidance,

if we summon the courage

of our forefathers,

our heritage of freedom

will be preserved.

Yeah, looking back,

it was horrible what we did.

The, uh... We were being used

by the government

to stop dissent,

just... plain and simple.

It was very serious.

It reached as far

as political assassination...

Gestapo-style assassination

of a leading black organizer

in Chicago, Fred Hampton.

It was what Hoover liked.

It was what Hoover

wanted to hear,

that agents were neutralizing

these different organizations.

So there wasn't a question

of whether it was

right or wrong,

illegal, ethical,

immoral or whatever,

as long as it was effective.

America has no place

for those timid souls

who urge appeasement

at any price,

nor those who chant

the "better Red than dead" slogan.

We need men and women with

a capacity for moral indignation,

men and women of faith,

men and women of conviction,

men and women with the God-given

strength and determination

to uphold the cause

of democracy.

When we went to New York

we were so elated.

John was in love with New York City

to begin with,

and I, for me, of course,

it was almost like

my hometown.

And we met all the artists

and all the sort of underground politicians

and everything.

It was just so exciting.

So we started to feel

that we should stay.

I just sort of felt at home here

as soon as I relaxed

and got over the fact

that I wasn't, you know,

in England,

and that I was living

somewhere else.

Fortunately, or unfortunately,

they speak English,

so I just fitted in.

At that point I think

John said it felt like

the center of the creative world

and that in the time of Rome

you'd want to be in Rome.

You wouldn't want

to be in the suburbs.

In the time of the '70s,

you'd want to be in New York.

John wanted to live right here.

He didn't want any hassles,

but he came into a cauldron.

He put himself right in the middle

of a political firestorm,

and he got singed by it.

The problem with John Lennon

was not his music,

but it was with

some of the friends

that he began to develop.

They make it so that

the Chinese,

they make it

so that the Vietnamese,

they make it so the Viet Cong,

they're enemies.

But they're my brothers,

not the enemies, you see?

Dig it.

We are at war

with that empire

that pollutes and tries

to destroy the world

and its own young people.

We are at war, Nixon.

Remember that.

Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were

very highly evolved political activists.

They, I hasten to add,

had a sweetness to them, too,

but they were much more hardened

by the wars

that they had been fighting now

for several years

in a very public environment.

We met them, and we were both

very nervous about it.

Yes.

And I thought, I don't want...

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