The Unknown Known Page #6

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It doesn't seem

to bother people.

But I'm working my way

over to figuring out

how I won't answer that.

We'll make this

the last question.

Last question.

Mr. secretary, could I just

ask one thing about Gitmo?

Oh, no, no, I love that ending.

I'm... uh...

if you think I'm gonna mess

that one up, you're wrong.

The U.S. and its Afghan

allies clearly have the momentum

in the battle for Tora Bora.

Secretary Rumsfeld admitted

it is unclear

when this fight will end.

The number of

prisoners is climbing.

Two weeks ago,

secretary Rumsfeld dismissed

the idea of detaining

large numbers

of captured fighters.

Well, this week,

he reversed himself,

saying a large number would

likely be taken into custody.

"January 19, 2002."

The subject:

"Status of Taliban

and Al-Qaeda."

"The United States

has determined

that Al-Qaeda and Taliban

individuals

under the control

of the department of defense,

are not entitled

to prisoner of war status

for purposes of the Geneva

conventions of 1949."

Don't you think

that the decision on Geneva

caused so much trouble?

Oh, my goodness, it would

have been so much easier

if you could treat people,

all of them,

the same as prisoners of war.

Then you wouldn't have

to interrogate anybody.

You could just house them

someplace.

Now, would that have been

a responsible thing

for the president

to do? No.

The president needed to know

what was gonna happen next.

Every day,

the intelligence reports said,

"this is a risk.

This is a risk.

Watch out for this.

Something could happen there."

It was the responsibility of the president

to try to prevent a future attack.

Tell you what I'm gonna do.

I am gonna stay here

and answer as many

detainee questions

as need to be answered.

I don't know

that I'll know the answers

to all the questions, but I...

if I don't, we'll find them,

because it seems to me

it's time to tap down

some of this hyperbole

that we're finding.

Mr. secretary...

Mr. secretary...

- Mr. secretary...

- Mr. secretary.

Is John Walker being treated

the same way

- as the other detainees?

- Yes.

Shackled,

hooded in the transfer...

oh, my goodness.

Now, look.

Is he being treated

like the other detainees,

shackled, hooded,

and what have you?

Oh, well,

let me say this about that.

When people are moved,

they are restrained.

That is true in prisons

across the globe.

Will any single prisoner

be treated humanely?

You bet.

When they are being moved

from place to place,

will they be restrained in a way

so that they are less likely

to be able to

kill an American soldier?

You bet.

Is it inhumane

to do that? No.

Would it be stupid

to do anything else?

Yes.

Mr. secretary...

what about all these

so-called "torture memos?"

Well, there were, what,

one or two or three.

I don't know the number,

but there were not

"all" of these

so-called memos.

They were mischaracterized

as torture memos,

and they came, not out of

the bush administration per se,

but they came out of

the U.S. department of justice,

blessed by the Attorney General,

the senior legal official

of the United States of America,

having been nominated

by a president and confirmed

by the United States senate

overwhelmingly.

Little different cast

I just put on it

than the one you did.

I'll chalk that one up.

Was the reaction unfair?

Well, I've never read them.

- Really?

- No.

I'm not a lawyer.

What would I know?

I've never seen so much

misinformation communicated

about a place than was the case

about Guantanamo bay, Cuba.

This prison was

exceedingly well-run,

yet the impression that's left

is that it was a terrible place,

and people were tortured,

and people were abused.

Prisons aren't pretty places,

but that prison

is probably as well-run

as any prison

on the face of the earth.

If you go and ask somebody

in a big audience,

"how many people do you think

were waterboarded

at Guantanamo?"

And people stick their hands up,

and someone will say,

"well, hundreds."

The answer is,

"nobody."

Zero were waterboarded

at Guantanamo.

The military

never waterboarded anybody

in an interrogation.

The CIA waterboarded,

as I understand it,

three people.

But it wasn't at Guantanamo,

and it wasn't done

by the United States

department of defense.

Al Qahtani

was never waterboarded?

No.

Now, were there some things done

that shouldn't have been done

at Guantanamo?

You bet.

When someone looked

like they were

a very high-value detainee,

the department of defense

didn't deal with them.

The central intelligence agency

did, and properly so.

In the case of Qahtani,

he was a high-value detainee,

and for some reason,

he wasn't transferred.

Someone junior

in the chain of command

decided that he was probably

the 20th hijacker.

General hill wrote a memo.

"There are three categories

of interrogation techniques

that we would like you

to consider for approval."

How unusual were

these techniques?

Oh, they ran the gamut.

One of the techniques

recommended was waterboarding,

which I rejected.

Others would be,

"yelling at the detainee,

techniques of deception,

where you'd use

multiple interrogator...

interviewer may identify himself

as a citizen of a foreign...

with a reputation

for harsh treatment...

category II techniques...

stress positions, like standing,

for a maximum of four hours.

Falsified documents

or reports...

the use of isolation

facility for up to 30 days.

Deprivation of light

and auditory stimuli.

Hood placed over his head

during transportation

and questioning.

20 hour interrogations.

Removal of all comfort items,

including religious items.

Removal of clothing. Forced

grooming, shaving of facial hair.

Detainee individual phobias,

such fear of dogs,

to induce stress.

Category III techniques.

Use of non...

physical contact such as

grabbing and light pushing."

I think that's all.

Good grief,

that's a pile of stuff.

Jim Haynes, the general counsel,

sent it to me with a cover memo.

"I recommend that you approve

most of the things

in category I, if not all,

most of the things

in category II, if not all,

and one or two or three

of the things in category III.

But disapprove the others."

I remember one of the things

required that

he'd stand for three or four,

five, six hours.

When I approved it,

I wrote down that, you know,

I stand for eight or ten

hours a day.

I forget what I said,

but something like that.

Needless to say,

I did not intend

that my memo would then be sent

back down the chain of command.

In the case of Qahtani,

some of the things

that were done to him

were not approved.

And the interrogation plan

involving the duration

and the combination

of the techniques

was not proper.

Up came a concern expressed

to the general counsel.

"We hear some of these things

are being done to this fellow

that aren't approved

or aren't proper

in the interrogation plan."

And he came in and told me,

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