The Witness Page #3

These kind of people don't want to get involved.

- Why didn't we do something?

I mean, I... I feel

a terrible guilt.

Much of the reports

were illegible.

And almost all the names

had been redacted.

I was at a dead end

without the names.

But I thought of someone

who might be able to help.

20/20 has gone back

to reexamine

what has become

a classic case

not of crime,

but of social behavior.

- Hello?

- Aram?

- Yes.

- This is Bill Genovese.

My sister was Kitty Genovese.

Oh, yes.

Oh, my goodness.

Did you, did you have any luck in

reaching any of the witnesses?

I did try

to track them down, yes.

I used to have a file.

Uh, I have some stuff

at Columbia

and, uh, if it were anywhere

it could be there.

The list Aram had found

contained summarized versions

of the witness accounts.

Most importantly,

it had the names.

These statements

from the neighbors

matched the DD5 reports.

So Aram's list must have come

from the police interviews.

When I added up the number

of entries, there were 38.

Could these be

the 38 witnesses?

Lynne, I presume.

- Yes, Bill, I presume.

- Yes, and you're Tod.

- This is Tod. Bill.

- Uh, Bill.

- How're you doing?

Good.

Can I help?

- Nah, I'm good.

- Okay.

Can't we help you?

Over here, yeah.

So, you lived

in the Mowbray?

What apartment, what floor?

Second floor. 214.

Did you feel

like the neighborhood was safe?

Yes.

Cause you were 19, 20

around 1964.

Did you feel you could come

and go in the evening?

Oh, yes,

but I could see people

and they would just pull down

the shades or...

There was a fear.

There was a fear

in that building, I think.

What was your experience

that night?

I heard a scream.

It woke me up.

I looked out the window,

I didn't see anything

I didn't hear any more.

And I said, "Oh, well."

I went back to sleep.

Did it wake your parents up?

No, as far as I know.

The next morning the detectives

were pounding on the door

and I told them what I had,

you know, experienced.

Yeah.

Do you think you were

1 of the 38

that were reported

to have done nothing?

I... I supposed I could be

I could be counted

in with that.

Hmm.

When the police...

Because I woke up

I looked out the window...

and I went back to bed.

But I wasn't in that group.

- Yeah.

I... I, that was not my

behavior in that, in that.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

In my research, your name

and your mom's name

is down there as saying

"I heard, George, he's..."

Eh, let me get it right

"George, he's, he's done it

to me.

George, he's done it to me."

Twice.

And then, "Please help me."

So, you and your mom

you were probably counted

as part of the 38.

And, according

to your remembering

your mom never said anything?

No, as far as I know,

she never spoke to the police at all.

Yeah.

Wow, I have no idea

who George is

but I, I never heard

of anything like that.

And as far as I know

momma was asleep.

That is shocking.

Wow.

- Come on in.

- Hello.

- How are ya?

- You're Hattie?

- Yes.

- Hi, Bill Genovese.

- Nice to meet you.

- How're you doing?

Nice strong grip.

Were you ever interviewed

by the police?

Yes, I think I was, yeah.

This is what they recorded

anyway, that you said to them.

"Hattie Grund, saw a woman

screaming, "Help."

"She was standing in front of cleaners.

No male was present."

That's true. I heard somebody

saying "Help, help.."

...from what I recall

and then I called the police.

- You called the police?

- Always.

And they said,

"We already got the calls."

- Hmm.

- I didn't even finish my statement.

And they said,

"We've already gotten the call."

It wasn't that people

didn't call.

There might have been other

people that called..

...because once you got

the police station

before you could finish they

said, "We've gotten the calls."

When news reporters, uh,

came to talk to you, uh

were they pushing the, you know,

the witness story and asking...

Oh yeah, they were persistent in

getting information, you know.

And that's the thing Kew Gardens

got a little aroused

when they said they were,

we were apathetic.

We were not. There are always

a few people that call.

After hearing

Hattie Grund claim

she and others

called the police.

I requested the police log of

phone calls from that night.

The only call they list

is from Karl Ross

well after Moseley was gone.

Did the police fail

to log the calls?

Or did Hattie just create

a story she could live with?

A witness who doesn't know

she's a witness.

So many other missed details

of that night.

Like the fact that Kitty

didn't die alone.

How could anything be believed

about this story?

I never questioned it.

Two years after Kitty's death

I graduated high school.

The Vietnam War

was in full swing.

Many of my peers were looking

for ways not to serve.

Whether the war

was right or wrong

I couldn't help but see them

as apathetic bystanders.

I wasn't going to be like

the 38 witnesses

So I enlisted in the Marines.

And at 18, you're going off

to war and you're thinking

"I'll come home okay."

I think he's looking

for the ultimate inner peace.

The choices that he made

in his life

um, were all related to the fact

that no one

helped his sister.

And if he knows the truth,

that's a peacefulness.

I mean, I'm hoping for Bill

that there'll be closure.

You know, like he didn't

lose his legs

in Vietnam for nothing.

The version of the story

that was accepted as fact

for so many years was written

by the late reporter

Martin Gansberg.

His editor at "The Time"

was a man named Abe Rosenthal

who became a major figure

in journalism.

From what I've found,

it's Rosenthal

who's credited with breaking

the story.

And later that year

he wrote a book called

"38 Witnesses."

This story has never died.

I still get mail about it,

people write theses about it.

There are lectures

and seminars at universities.

They are obsessed

by this story.

It's like a jewel.

You keep looking at it

and different things

occur to you.

It's affected my approach

to life, I think.

Okay, sir.

According to his book,

he first heard my sister's name

when he had lunch

with the city's police chief

10 days after the murder.

I was, uh, nauseated

at the idea

that people in New York City

in Queens, knew that a girl

was getting killed.

And later they dis,

it was discovered

that 38 people

didn't do anything.

It was the failure

of New York City

or the people

of New York City

to take action, stick out

a hand, do something.

- Right.

- Shout, "Hey, we need help."

And that was what grabbed

the people of the city

and other cities.

Well, where did

the number 38 come?

I wonder was it synthesized somehow to make a big impact?

- No.

So that we could

get a positive.

I mean,

for a positive result...

You asked the question

and I'm telling you.

I can't swear to God

that there were 38 people.

Some people say

there were more

some people say

there were less

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