Let the Fire Burn Page #7

that it would, in fact, be used,

and it is my view

that you can regard that...

as an approval of using

the explosive on the roof, yes.

...right there in a 10-15 foot hover

above the roof.

And I was right on the left-hand side

of the helicopter right here.

Onto this corner

is where I finally came to a stop.

You were down in the garage,

is that right?

We was down there for a while,

and then everybody came down.

- All the men came down?

- That's when the big bomb went off.

It shook the whole house up.

Police say there has just been

a huge explosion here.

We don't know what it means,

but it just shook the whole place.

Debris flew all over the place.

I don't know what that explosion was.

All I can tell you

is that it was a huge blast.

Get a shot with me.

Get a sh-

- Harvey, can you hear us?

- At this point, I really can't tell you very much.

There was about a 15-second delay,

then an explosion.

Perhaps the most frightening thing here

is that police do say...

that six to eight children are believed

to be inside the MOVE house.

As soon as we find out what the

explosion is, we will try to tell you.

At this point, I simply do not know.

After the explosion, you saw that the

bunker was still there.

Yes, sir.

Did you observe any smoke

or fire on the roof?

I did not.

And-I did hear over the

radio that there was none.

It's easy to equate explosions

and explosive materials with fire.

But that's not necessarily so.

'Cause I think we've

all seen buildings

demolished, and it's used

all the time in mining.

So I don't think you

can just logically conclude...

if you're going to have an explosion,

you're going to have a fire.

There's no more smoke. And at this

point, looking over my shoulder,

the water barrage appears

to have ended again.

Okay, there is a new development

at the MOVE building, 62nd and Osage.

We'll go live right away

to Harvey Clarke at the scene.

- What's going on, Harvey?

- Larry, behind me you can probably see right now-

We'll push and try

to get a little tighter shot of it-

that the satchel charge, or whatever-

the explosive or bomb...

that was dropped on the MOVE compound

just a few minutes ago...

has apparently started

a serious fire.

But the two deluge guns or sprinklers...

that they've been pumping water in

from Pine Street are not active now.

I wanted to get the bunker.

I wanted to be able to

somehow have tactical superiority...

without sacrificing any lives,

if it were at all possible.

Commissioner Sambor said to me.

He said let's let the bunker burn...

to eliminate that high ground advantage

and the tactical advantage of the bunker.

And I said, "Yeah, okay."

it was not an order.

In essence, in communication-

I communicated to him

that I would like to let the fire burn.

Larry, this is becoming

a very emotional scene.

With me is Janice Walker.

She lives at 6217 Osage,

- just two doors from the MOVE house.

- Yes.

And you're afraid

that your house may be on fire.

I'm sure it's just destroyed,

and it's just not fair.

We've been there over 20 years, and we

didn't have to have to go through this.

We only left with a few odds

and ends, you know, for the night.

We had no idea it was

gonna be this devastating.

You've got innocent people that

live around there on Osage Avenue,

and they just, you know-

Their properties have just

gone up in smoke.

I saw initially a small fire on the roof.

I saw what appeared...

to be some water coming in.

I determined later

that that was not water at all...

but was basically the kind of snow

on my television screen.

And after about five minutes

of watching that,

I gave what was

my first order of the day,

which was "put the fire out."

You are aware that

the mayor has testified...

that at approximately 6:00

on the evening of May 13,

he ordered that the fire be put out.

I heard the testimony, yes, sir.

Do you know whether or not...

there had been any order

to put the fire out?

Yes, sir.

- Did you convey that order to anyone else?

- Yes, sir.

- To whom?

- The fire commissioner was still there.

To whom?

The fire commissioner was still there.

- Those responses were Commissioner Sambor, sir?

- Yes, sir.

I categorically deny that.

I had no knowledge

of an order to extinguish that fire.

Was there any smoke or tear gas

in the garage when you were down there?

- Or was there tear gas?

- It was smoke and tear gas.

Smoke and tear gas?

Did it bother you? Did it burn

your eyes or anything?

And what did you all do?

We was under the blanket

with our heads.

- Were all the kids under blankets?

- Mm-hmm.

- Where were the women?

- Under blankets.

They were under blankets?

Now, you said the blankets were wet.

Mm-hmm.

- How did the blankets get wet?

- 'Cause we had 'em in the bucket.

Bucket of water.

Isn't it true, Commissioner Sambor

and fire Commissioner Richmond,

that you in effect made a decision

to use fire as a weapon in this instance?

Absolutely not, sir.

Well, you made a decision to let that

fire burn until the bunker was destroyed.

- Isn't that right?

- When you talk about a weapon,

you talk about a weapon as being

used against probably individuals,

and that was never a consideration

nor would I ever use it as a consideration.

Well, fire Commissioner Richmond,

what did you understand the police

commissioner was asking you to do?

I would respond in the same way,

Justice Kaufmann.

There is no one that I know

in city government...

that would intentionally go out there

to burn those people like that.

There's no one that I know of

could do that.

You were aware in 1978, I assume,

that a situation had developed...

involving certain police officers

and Delbert Africa?

Yes, sir.

Did you give any instructions...

as to whether or not

the officers who were

specifically involved

in that altercation...

should or should not be included

in the operation for May 13, 1985?

I did not.

Weren't you concerned that there

might be some revenge motive...

which may take the police action

beyond the legal limits?

I think there's no question

there was, at least

on the part of some

policemen, residual anger...

towards MOVE organization

or members thereof.

No question about that.

Would the court reporter

please swear in the witnesses?

Do you solemnly swear

to tell the truth, the

whole truth and nothing

but the truth...

- so help you God?

- I do.

Officer D'Ulisse, I understand that in

1978, you were present on August 8...

during an altercation

that occurred with Delbert Africa.

Yes.

And officer Mulvihill?

What does that have to do

with May the 13th?

The officer was tried and found

not guilty of that offense.

That was going to be

my next statement, Mr. Mozenter.

Officer, we understand that you were

charged in connection with that case,

and also we understand

that there was a direct

verdict by Judge Dibona of

not guilty in that case.

- Is that correct?

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