My Dinner with Andre Page #11

...whether it's, uh,

doing business, or making love...

...or having dinner together,

or whatever...

...that every action of ours

should be a prayer...

...a sacrament in the world.

Now, do you think we're living like that?

Why do you think

we're not living like that?

I think it's because if we allowed ourselves

to see what we do every day...

...we might just find it too nauseating.

I mean, the way we treat other people.

You know, every day, several times a day,

I walk into my apartment building.

The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory,

and I call him Jimmy.

Already, what's the difference

between that...

...and the Southern plantation owner

who's got slaves?

You see, I think that an act of murder

is committed in that moment...

...when I walk into that building.

Because here's a dignified, intelligent man...

a man of my own age...

...and when I call him Jimmy,

then he becomes a child, and I'm an adult...

...because I can buy my way

into the building.

Right. That's right.

I mean, my God,

when I was a Latin teacher...

I mean, people used to treat me...

I mean, uh, you know,

if I would go to a party...

...of professional or literary people...

I mean, I was just treated, uh,

in the nicest sense of the word...

...uh, like a dog.

I mean, in other words,

there was no question...

...of my being able to participate on

an equal basis in a conversation with people.

I mean, you know, I'd occasionally

have conversations with people...

...but then, uh,

when they asked what I did...

...which would always happen

after about five minutes...

...uh, you know, their faces...

Even if they were enjoying the conversation, or

they were flirting with me, or whatever it was...

...their faces would just have that expression

just like the portcullis crashing down.

You know, those medieval gates.

They would just walk away.

I mean, I literally lived like a dog.

And I mean, uh, when Debby was

working as a secretary, you know...

...if she would tell people what she did,

they would just go insane.

I mean, it would be just

as if she'd said, uh...

"Oh, well, I've been serving a life sentence

recently, uh, for child murdering. "

I mean, my God, you know, when you talk

about our attitudes toward other people...

I mean, I think of myself...

...as just a very decent,

good person, you know...

...just because I think

I'm reasonably friendly...

...to most of the people

I happen to meet every day.

I mean, I really think

of myself quite smugly.

I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy,

uh, you know...

...so long as I think of the world

as consisting of, you know...

...just the small circle of the people

that I know as friends...

...or the few people that we know

in this little world of our little hobbies...

...the theater or whatever it is.

And I'm really quite self-satisfied.

I'm just quite happy with myself.

I just have no complaint about myself.

I mean, you know, let's face it.

I mean, there's a whole enormous world

out there that I just don't ever think about.

I certainly don't take responsibility

for how I've lived in that world.

I mean, you know, if I were actually

to sort of confront the fact...

...that I'm sort of sharing this stage...

...with-with-with this starving person

in Africa somewhere...

...well, I wouldn't feel so great

about myself.

So naturally I just... I just blot all those

people right out of my perception.

So, of course...

of course, I'm ignoring...

...a whole section of the real world.

But frankly, you know...

...when I write a play, in a way, one of the things

I guess I think I'm trying to do...

...is I'm trying to bring myself up

against some little bits of reality...

...and I'm trying to share that, uh,

with an audience.

I mean... I mean,

of course we all know, uh...

...the theater is, uh,

in terrible shape today.

I mean, uh... I mean, at least a few years ago

people who really cared about the theater...

...used to say, " The theater is dead. "

And now everybody's redefined

the theater in such a trivial way...

...that, I mean... I mean, God...

I know people who are involved with

the theater who go to see things now that...

I mean, a few years ago

these same people...

...would have just been embarrassed

to have even seen some of these plays.

I mean, they would have just shrunk,

you know,just in horror...

...at the superficiality of these things.

But now they say,

"Oh, that was pretty good. "

It's just incredible.

And I really just find that attitude

unbearable...

...because I really do think the theater

can do something very important.

I mean, I do think the theater can help

bring people in contact with reality.

Now, now, you may not feel that at all.

You may just find that totally absurd.

Yeah, but, Wally,

don't you see the dilemma?

You're not taking into account

the period we're living in.

I mean, of course that's what

the theater should do.

I mean, I've always felt that.

You know, when I was a young director,

and I directed the Bacchae at Yale...

...my impulse, when Pentheus has been

killed by his mother and the Furies...

...and they pull the tree back,

and they tie him to the tree...

...and fling him into the air, and he flies

through space and he's killed...

...and they rip him to shreds

and I guess cut off his head...

...my impulse was that the thing to do was

to get a head from the New Haven morgue...

...and pass it around the audience.

Now, I wanted Agawe

to bring on a real head...

...and that this head should be

passed around the audience...

...so that somehow people realized

that this stuff was real, see?

That it was real stuff.

- Now, the actress playing Agawe

absolutely refused to do it.

You know, Gordon Craig

used to talk about...

...why is there gold or silver in the churches

or something... The great cathedrals...

...when actors could be wearing

gold and silver?

And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse

in the last couple of years of her life, Wally...

...people said that is was like

seeing light on stage, or mist...

...or the essence of something.

I mean, then when you think

about Bertolt Brecht...

He somehow created a theater

in which people could observe...

...that was vastly entertaining

and exciting...

...but in which the excitement

didn't overwhelm you.

He somehow allowed you the distance

between the play and yourself...

...that, in fact, two human beings need

in order to live together.

You know, the question is whether

the theater now can do for an audience...

...what Brecht tried to do

or what Craig or Duse tried to do.

Can it do it now?

'Cause, you see, I think that

people today are so deeply asleep...

...that unless, you know, you're putting on

those sort of superficial plays...

...that just help your audience

to sleep more comfortably...

...it's very hard to know

what to do in the theater.

Because, you see, I think that if you

put on serious, contemporary plays...

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