Nadia Boulanger: Mademoiselle Page #4

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a Scherzo that was given Chopin

to write

and that no longer needs Chopin

to be a masterpiece.

It no longer needs a performer,

or a listener.

It needs nothing.

It is just floating in the air,

ablaze with light.

Then, you look at it or you don't.

Piano piece

by Jean-Louis Haguenauer

The range of her activities,

her open--mindedness,

her rigor, her vast knowledge,

the quality of those she has guided

are such

that N. Boulanger

has exercised a major influence

on music

in the 20th century.

Is she the founder

of a school of thought?

I am not a member

of the ''Boulangerie'',

as it is called in the United States.

That word ''Boulangerie''

is rather interesting.

It appeared,

with a somewhat ironic overtone,

in the... how does one say that?

- In the fifties.

- In the fifties, yes.

When serial music

became very powerful.

There were new leaders,

new guides, new ''Fhrers'',

like Stockhausen,

Pierre Boulez.

That changed

the whole musical ambience.

The coterie of Nadia's pupils

was suddenly called

the ''Boulangerie'',

derogatorily,

and relegated.

But what is important

is that Nadia's influence remains,

nonetheless,

because music is eclectic

as is testified

by the fact that tonality

is to be found everywhere,

even in Penderecki.

Those principles

on which she always insisted

prove to be more important

than ever.

Nadia Boulanger,

you have witnessed what

has happened in 20th-century music.

In your youth, you knew

what were then considered

the ''audacities'' of Gounod,

whose audaciousness

obviously rather escapes us;

you knew Stravinsky

and practically all the important

people in 20th century music.

How would you define the basic

trend of music in that century?

Oh well, the answer is easy

because there are some big dates.

Even if you limit yourself

to 5 or 6 works of reference,

you have Pellas, Les Noces

- whether you like them or not -

you have Wozzeck,

Bluebeards Castle,

you can enumerate...

You have the Symphony of Psalms.

You have works

that answer for the times.

Technically speaking,

hasn't the 20th century

introduced a radical departure

in ways of writing music?

Do you think this will seem

such a great split in fifty years?

When Pellas was premiered,

people heard the orchestra tuning up

and thought it was Pellas.

When we began playing

Monteverdi again,

it was thought to be dreadful.

And when my dear father

was writing

his charming opras-comiques,

- very well written

but in pure French tradition -

the press wrote:

''What a pity that Mr. Boulanger,

''after his brilliant Rome Prize,

''gave himself

over to German technique!''

So, what does that mean?

There are such prejudices,

there is..

a dreadful danger of habit.

Now habits are not traditions.

People now realize...

Debussy has already gone

through his purgatory.

Faur is still in the shade:

he's one of those

who never have a large audience.

But it is very striking to see

that today's young people realize

that this supreme distinction,

this supreme sobriety,

this true classicism,

are very important.

And God knows

how long it will take

for all of this

to acquire a new importance,

to lead the way to a new classicism,

because fortunately

history never repeats itself.

Can one establish a hierarchy

among composers?

It seems to me difficult

to award degrees:

''You are no. 1 , and he, no. 3.''

I find that difficult.

Still, you must think that Beethoven

is more important

than Max Bruch, for example...

You are getting

into deep waters there!

You are saying:

the Himalayas

or the Butte Montmartre!

You can't compare Montmartre

with the Himalayas.

I must honestly say

that I hardly think

of Max Bruch at all,

whereas I've rarely spent

a day without thinking of Beethoven.

In a fit of bad temper

you could be anti-Beethoven

one day.

Against! Yes,

which is a manner of loving,

but never indifferent.

You've never been shocked

by a pupil,

by a work fundamentally new

in relation to what you appreciate

in music?

I don't know what you mean

by the word ''shocked''.

You might use the word ''struck'',

but the word ''shocked''

implies refusal...

-Yes, rejection.

-Precisely.

Whereas ''struck''

means expectation.

It's very different to confront

a work you don't know yet,

or a work

in which you have

to recognise some worth,

while secretly saying to yourself:

''that's a trend

I would never follow.''

That's a matter of personal taste.

Cannot culture allow us

to go beyond personal taste

and see the beauty of an object.

I might not want to buy it,

but I can see that it's beautiful.

Where you not struck

by her openness of mind?

I will answer you

by evoking one reminiscence.

There was a time

when she told me

that she was studying intensely

the Schnberg treatise

because some of her pupils

were eager to study

the twelve-tone techniques.

Instead of saying

''that's far from my taste,

I don't like it'',

she turned her attention to it

in order to help them.

When I started,

the great new thing was Hindemith.

Well, Nadia was one of the first

to bring Hindemith

into the classroom.

Hindemith in those days

was something totally new.

A new horizon.

There might be some theories

of musical technique

that correspond more

to your own taste than others?

lf it were a matter

of my own principles,

that would be important

because of the work I could do.

But I am incapable

of writing anything valuable.

I realised at twenty

that I wasn't a composer.

On what ground?

That was so obvious!

The music I have written

is what I call useless.

Not even bad,

because I knew the craft.

But this chapter

is of no interest at all.

Thus my preferences

are of no account.

I only hope

that

a certain approach to grammar

and to the form of language

goes beyond personal taste.

To what extent?

I am not entirely certain

on this score.

To what extent

are you not influenced?

I do hope though

that I have never liked something

that was worthless,

that deserved to be rejected.

I hope, but I may be wrong.

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