Shoah Page #24

Unless you were tired of life,

it was best not to mention that.

[ Lanzmann ] But you knew that

the trains to Treblinka or Auschwitz were...

Of course we knew.

I was the last district:

- [ Lanzmann Continues Speaking German]

Without me, these trains

couldn't reach their destination.

- Ja. Ja.

- Um...

For instance,

a train that started in Essen

had to go through

the district of Wuppertal,

Hannover, Magdeburg, Berlin,

Frankfurt/Oder, Posen, Warsaw, etc.

So I had to.

Did you know that Treblinka

meant extermination?

Of course not!

You didn't know?

Good God, no!

How could we know?

I never went to Treblinka.

I stayed in Krakow, in Warsaw,

glued to my desk.

You were a...

- I was strictly a bureaucrat!

- lsee.

[ Lanzmann ]

But ifs astonishing

that people in the Department

of Special Trains

never knew about the final solution.

[ Stier ]

We were at war.

Because there were others

who worked for the railroads who knew.

Like the train conductors.

- Nein.

Yes, they saw it. They did.

- [ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]

But as to what happened, I know...

What was Treblinka for you?

Treblinka or Auschwitz?

Yes, for us Treblinka,

Belzec, and all that,

were concentration camps.

- A destination.

- Yes, that's all.

- But not death.

- No.

People were put up there.

For instance,

for a train coming from Essen

or Cologne, or elsewhere,

room had to be made for them there.

With the war and the allies

advancing everywhere,

those people had to be

concentrated in camps.

When exactly did you find out?

When the word got around,

when it was whispered.

- Ja.

- It was never said outright.

Good God, no!

They'd have hauled you off at once!

We heard things...

- Rumors?

- That's it, rumors.

- During the war?

- Bitte?

[ Repeats Phrase]

- Towards the end of the war.

- [ Repeats Phrase]

Not in 1942?

- No!

Good God, no! Not a word!

Towards the end of 1944, maybe.

[ Clears Throat]

- End of 1944?

- Not before.

What did you...?

It was said that

people were being sent to camps,

and those who weren't in good health

probably wouldn't survive.

Extermination came to you

as a big surprise?

- Completely. Yes.

- [ Repeats Phrase]

You had no idea.

- Not the slightest.

Like that camp, what was its name...?

It was in the Oppeln district.

I've got it:
Auschwitz!

- Yes.

Auschwitz was in the Oppeln district.

- Right.

Auschwitz wasn't far from Krakow.

- That's true.

We never heard a word about that.

- Auschwitz to Krakow is 40 miles.

- That's not very far.

And we knew nothing.

Not a clue.

- [ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]

- Nein.

But you knew that the Nazis...

that Hitler didn't like the Jews?

That we did.

It was well-known,

it appeared in print.

- [ Lanzmann ] Ja.

- It was no secret.

But as to their extermination,

that was news to us.

I mean, even today people deny it.

They say there couldn't

have been so many Jews.

Is it true? I don't know.

That's what they say.

- Ja.

Anyway what was done was an outrage.

- What?

- The extermination.

Everyone condemns it.

Every decent person.

But as for knowing about it, we didn't.

Ja.

The Poles, for instance.

- Ja?

- The Polish people knew everything.

That's not surprising, Dr. Sorel.

They lived nearby,

they heard, they talked.

And they didn't have to keep quiet.

[Whistle Blows]

[ Hilberg, In English]

This is the Fahrplananordnung Number 587,

which is typical for special trains.

The number of the order goes to show you

how many of them there were.

Underneath, Nur fUr den Dienstgebrauch.

Only for internal use.

But this turns out to be

a very low classification for secrecy.

Yes.

And the fact that, in this entire document,

which, after all, deals with death trains,

0H6 cannot SEE...

not only on this one,

but one cannot see it on others...

one cannot see

the word geheim, secret,

is astonishing to me.

That they would not have done that

is very astonishing.

But, on second thought, I believe that,

had they labeled it secret,

they would have invited a great many

inquiries from people who got hold of it.

They would then have

perhaps raised more questions.

They would have focused

attention on the thing.

And the key to the entire operation,

from a psychological standpoint,

was never to utter the words

that would be appropriate

to the action being taken.

Say nothing. Do these things.

Do not describe them.

So, therefore, this is

Nur fur den Dienstgebrauch.

And now notice to how many recipients

this particular order goes.

Bie Bahnhbfe.

On this stretch, there is one, two,

three, four, five, six, seven, eight,

and here we are in Malkinia...

- Malkinia.

Which is, of course,

the station near Treblinka.

Of course.

But notice that it takes eight recipients

for this relatively short distance,

through Radom to the Warsaw district.

Eight, because the train

passes through these stations.

Therefore, each one has to know.

Not only that, but, of course,

you're not going to write two pieces of paper

if you can write one.

So, therefore, we find here not only PKR,

which is a death train going here,

in the plan, labeled thus,

but we also see the empty train

after it has arrived in Treblinka,

now originating in Treblinka.

And you can always know when it's an empty train

with the word L in front of it,

Leer.

- Yes. Ruckleitung des Leerzuges...

- And now...

Yes. And now... And now... And now...

- ...which means return the empty train.

And now we're going back.

Then we have another train.

Now notice that there's very little subtlety

to this numbering system.

We're going from 9228 to 9229,

to 9230, to 9231, to 9232.

Hardly...

Hardly any, uh, originality here.

It's just very regular traffic.

[ Lanzmann ]

Death traffic.

[ Hilberg ]

Death traffic.

And, here, we see that,

starting out in one ghetto,

which obviously is being emptied,

the train leaves for Treblinka.

It leaves on the 30th of September, 1942,

18 minutes after 4:00,

by schedule at least,

arrives there at 11:24

on the next morning.

This is also a very long train,

which may be the reason that it takes so slow.

It's 50 G. That's, uh, "funfzig Guterwagen,

50 freight cars filled with people.

That's an exceptionally heavy transport.

Now, once the train

has been unloaded at Treblinka...

And you notice there are two numbers here:

11:
24... that's in the morning...

and 15:
59, which is to say,

almost 4:
00 in the afternoon.

In that interval of time,

the train has to be unloaded, cleaned

and turned around.

- It has to be... It has to be very fast.

It has to be turned around.

And you see, here, the same numbers appear

as the 'Zeerzug, now empty train,

goes to another place.

And it leaves at 4:00 in the afternoon

and now goes to that other place,

which is yet another small town,

where it picks up victims.

And there you are at 3:00 in the morning.

It leaves on the 23rd at 3:00 in the morning

and arrives there the next day.

What is that? it seems to be

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