Citizenfour Page #8

It's going to be projects,

it's going to be troubleshooting pages

for a particular tool...

Thanks.

Um... what's the next step?

When do you think you'll go public?

Ah, I think it's pretty soon,

I mean with the reaction,

this escalated more quickly.

I think pretty much as soon as they start

trying to make this about me,

which should be any day now.

Yep.

I'll come out just to go,

"Hey, this is not a question of somebody

skulking around in the shadows."

These are public issues,

these are not my issues,

you know, these are everybody's issues.

And I'm not afraid of you, you know.

You're not going to bully me into silence

like you've done to everybody else.

And if nobody else

is gonna do it, I will,

and hopefully when I'm gone,

whatever you do to me,

there will be somebody else

who'll do the same thing.

It'll be the sort of Internet

principle of the hydra.

You know, you can stomp one person,

but there's gonna be seven more of us.

Yeah.

Are you getting more nervous?

I mean, no.

I think, uh...

I think the way I look at stress,

particularly because I sort of

knew this was coming,

you know, because I sort of volunteered

to walk into it, um...

I'm already sort of familiar

with the idea.

I'm not worried about it.

When somebody, like, busts in the door?

Suddenly I'll get nervous,

and it'll affect me,

but until they do...

I don't know, you know.

I'm eating a little less,

that's the only difference, I think.

Let's talk about the issue with,

when we're gonna say who you are.

Yeah.

This is, you know, you have to

talk me through this.

Because I have a big worry about this.

Okay, tell me.

Which is that, if we come out and...

I know that you believe

that your detection

is inevitable and that

it's inevitable imminently.

There's, you know,

in the New York Times today,

Charlie Savage, the fascinating

Sherlock Holmes of political reporting,

deduced that the fact that there's

been these leaks in succession

probably means that there's some

one person who decided to leak...

Somebody else quoted you

as saying it was one of your readers,

and somebody else put another thing,

So, you know, it's fine.

I want people...

I want it to be like,

you know, like, this is a person...

I want to start introducing the concept

that this is a person

who has a particular set

of political objectives

about informing the world

about what's taking place.

So I'm keeping it all

anonymous, totally,

but I want to start introducing you

in that kind of incremental way.

But... here's the thing.

What I'm concerned is that

if we come out and say,

"Here's who this is,

here's what he did,"

the whole thing that we talked about,

that we're gonna basically be doing

the government's work for them.

And we're basically

going to be handing them,

you know, a confession,

and helping them identify who found it.

Maybe you're right,

maybe they'll find out quickly,

and maybe they'll know,

but is there any possibility

that they won't?

Are we kind of giving them

stuff that we don't... or, or...

The possibility that they know

but they don't want to reveal it

because they don't know.

Or that they don't know and we're

going to be telling them, like...

Is it a possibility that they're going

to need two, three months of uncertainty,

and we're going to be

solving that problem for them?

Or, let me just say, the or part,

maybe it doesn't matter to you,

maybe you wanted...

You're not coming out

because you think inevitably

they're going to catch you,

and you want to do it first,

you're coming out because

you want to f***ing come out.

- And you wanna be heard.

- Well, there is that.

I mean that's the thing,

I don't want to hide on this

and skulk around,

I don't think I should have to.

Um, obviously there are circumstances

that are saying that,

and I think it is powerful

to come out and be like,

look, I'm not afraid, you know,

and I don't think

other people should either.

I was sitting in the office

right next to you last week.

You know, we all have a stake in this.

This is our country.

And the balance of power between

the citizenry and the government

is becoming that of the ruling

and the ruled

as opposed to actually, you know,

the elected and the electorate.

Okay, so that's what I needed

to hear, that this is not about...

But I do want to say:

I don't think there's a case

that I'm not going to be discovered

in the fullness of time,

it's a question of time frame.

You're right, it could take them

a long time. I don't think it will.

But I didn't try to hide

the footprint because again,

I intended to come forward

the whole time.

I'm going to post this morning just

a general defense of whistleblowers...

That's fine, yeah.

...and you in particular without

saying anything about you.

I'm gonna go post that

right when I get back.

And I'm also doing like

a big f***-you to all the people

who keep, like,

talking about investigations.

I want that to be...

The fearlessness and the f***-you to,

like, the bullying tactics has gotta be

completely pervading everything we do.

And I think that's brilliant.

Your principles on this I love,

I can't support them enough.

Because it's inverting the model

that the government has laid out,

where people who are trying to,

you know, say the truth

skulk around and they hide in the dark

and they quote anonymously

and whatnot...

I say yes, f*** that, let's just...

Okay, so here's the plan then.

And this is the thing.

I think we just all felt the fact

that this is the right way to do it.

You feel the power of your

choice, you know what I mean?

I want that power

to be felt in the world.

And it is...

it's the ultimate standing up to them.

Right, like,

"I'm not gonna f***ing hide,

even for like one second,

I'm gonna get right in your face.

You don't have to investigate,

there's nothing to investigate,

here I am."

- Yeah.

- You know?

And I just think that is

just incredibly powerful.

And then the question just becomes

how do we do this in the right...

you know, the perfect way,

and that's my burden.

And that's what I'm gonna...

So today is gonna be

the story in the morning,

assuming that it doesn't change

with The Guardian,

it's gonna be the story in the morning,

just to keep the momentum going,

just to keep the disclosures coming,

a big one at night.

Now it's becoming, like, okay,

this is a major leak, and after today,

when we post the two things

that we're gonna post,

it's gonna be,

"What the f*** is this leak,

and who did it," I guarantee you.

I just want to make sure...

move over slightly.

Do you want me to move

a little more over, or, okay.

I just wanna... all right.

All right, we're rolling.

So let's just begin with some

basic background information,

like, just state your name,

what position you held

in the intelligence community,

and... and how long you

worked within that community.

Okay, um, just so I'm aware of

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